Please take the - FAKENESS - OUT of the Sawubona Music JAM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Permalink Reply by mthunzi fesi on June 6, 2009 at 2:35pm

Sawubona EES,

I thought music has no borderlines. Even if it's Reggae it's very very influenced by african rhythms, by the way it is- African Music. Theres is African music on this Page aswell and there is going to be more African music here, i'm dead sure.

Don't let yourself be bothered by little things.

I am not here to argue as well, i just felt i should give you a possitive answer.
We have just come back from Africa and there are more deeper things that this Project is hopefully going to challenge and i'm talking from our expiriences in Cape Town.

So wait for more news and footage.

Kind regards my brother,

Mthunzi

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Permalink Reply by Carsten Trotzkowski on June 6, 2009 at 8:00pm

Moin, Ees,

at last! Someone is making straight talk on this site on the main topic - the music!
Thanks a lot to open up the thread, I've been already afraid everyone is so much busy with his own music but to react on the other's, and I am quite fed up by getting so little response on what I do - even if it was negative - which I suppose will be your opinion to most of my music.

Being the European I am, with a classical background and somehow "British" songwriting skills, I came here to learn how African music was - and I was hoping I could interact with a lot of African musicians to change my style into that direction. But since cooperation (via internet) appears to be more difficult than expected, I only managed two remixes with "real" African music (thanks again to Lucky) - out of 23 tracks I produced for this project. Let me at this point give my greatest regards to all musicians that cooperated with me, I learned a lot from them - still in some sense I don't feel I got enough direction into African music.

Having that little response, I switched over to making tunes on poems of Kenyan poets - so if I am not able to do African music myself, at least my lyrics are real - and altogether I hope it is therefore more a cultural crossover than fake. Simply imitating your kind would be.

But altogether, already some month ago I suggested this music project should be given direction: What shall the result be? If I don't get you wrong, Ees, your "veto" will lead to that question, or better some more questions - I would like to suggest some questions as follows:

* Who is the target audience of the final CD? Whom are we aiming at?
* Are we to produce a CD with (South-) African music...
* ...or a mixup with international music which gives a worldwide view on Africa - how is Africa seen?
* If it was "just" original African music - will that music be kept inside it's own boundaries...
* ..or would there be room for the integration of EuropAmericAsian input INTO African music?
* Will the music have to follow professional markt demands...,
* ...or is there headroom fore "not-only-pleasant" topics and tunes?
* Or in other words: Is "Music from or for Africa" always "happy" music?
* Will there only "big" names from music market on the CD in the end - to attract the customers...
* ...or will it feature an "educational" aspect how it integrated amateurs and pros from all over the world?
* How are we dealing with some pro's who do not cooperate at all...
* ...but obviously only are using this platform as "just-another-self-marketing-channel"?

It's only few time left to bring up some fresh ideas - I suggest those ideas should be given a direction now! That might also give an answer to deeply annoyed Ees!

:-) Carsten (-:

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Permalink Reply by EES on June 6, 2009 at 10:00pm

YES-JA mei Outie! Carsten!
good to hear from u again bra...jaman, u feel what me saying!

I know that Sawubona is a Project that is targeted at MORE that just a CD project, and i respect that to the fullest, i have much love for all people that support africa and want to do good for us - rather that exploit africa!

i was just focusung totally on the MUSIc side of things, and I was very annoyed - because i thought this was a collaborative music JAM, between African and International artist to get african style of music OUT to the world, and vice verus, for africans to learn how to do music the professional way. BUT what i see here (i could be wrong - but that is my feeling) that this project might lead the buyer in a totally WRONG way of what AFRICAN music is ALL about, since the music collabos i heard that are supposed to be used for the project are not close to african music, what so ever - i NEWWA said African music is all about "happy" music - but what i diss agree is wehn i hear people singing about Zimbabwe ..or other topics like Soweto e.t.c that dont even know where these places are and what is really going on there. and like i sad before that reggae is a great music (but it does NOT represent the AFRICAN culture AT all...its is just a FAKE image that is being forced on to us africans from people that dont really know the african culture (well i only speak fro southern africa, to be exact)

i like to talk very open, anybody being offended by this . IT YOUR problem...i am a BIG promoter for AFRICAN music Internationally,...and i just wanted to state my feeling on this discussion.

Thank you for your time and understanding:

EES

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Permalink Reply by Carsten Trotzkowski on June 7, 2009 at 12:32am

Thank you, Ees, please let me state again that I consider this discussion to be the most important here.

Please let me first say, that although I adressed you directly in my answer, of course the list of questions is aimed at the community as a whole, and the ones to declare the rules. Either the community will find a democratic approach to define aims, or someone will have to fix it centrally. (it's been in fact not you but some other voices that told me all music for South Africa is supposed to be happy music - while I still have difficulties mentally to combine lyrics about The Perpetrator or a fierce fire attack at children with happy groovy beats - your What Dey Fighting For is an important affirmation of my train of thought to me).

But if could ask you for a personal favour, I'd ask you on something that's very interesting for me, for although I collected many facts, I never found anything that would define "South African Music". If it was not Reggae like Eddy Grant, I guess that would surely also disqualify Johnny Clegg or Manfed Mann, or a song like "Biko" from British Peter Gabriel, where the song is said to have had some impact on the anti-Apartheid-fight (but this of course can be a media trick I can't dissolve). No, of course that is not the "original" South-African music at all, but for my picture of the country they play an important role.

I mean, Ees, you appear to have visited Cologne and Germany for some times. What would you consider to be "German" music? To be frank, I would have great difficulties in explaining, so maybe I'm asking too much, I fear....

:-) Carsten (-:

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Permalink Reply by Lucky Thobela on June 7, 2009 at 12:45am

Sainbonani Nonke

Hey EEs,Carsten,Mthunzi

it sounds quite interesting in collaboration.

Music it's a universal language.

when we collaborate, we always try to show the best out of our selfs.

i think it could be better to understand the project in a very broad way, i believe it's not for individual musicians gains as much.

we are talking about the wounds of the past.
the present generation it's still in the proses of healing. from the Big City's, Townships and in the rural areas, where you could find the real African Melody's and rhythms, but, with no access of Computers, or i may say modern technology.

please, lets give it a time, so we could grow with the project, i believe with all our contribution that we passing it on, we are really creating a better world for all of us, as responsible global citizens in sawubona-musicjam project.

i know the project has made a difference already in many aspects of Art.

cool regards to all

Lucky Thobela

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Permalink Reply by EES on June 7, 2009 at 11:49am

Awee'! Carsten!

YES- i know u aimed the Questions at the comunity, and that was a GOOD move...a lot of those questions where also bothering me!
Hahaha..the reason why you think all these artist like Eddy Grant and Manfred Mann represent African music (or ask yourself the question if they do) is because these are the only artist that get airplay out side of South Africa - to tell you the truth they are more well know outsuide of Southern Africa than in africa itself..so a Media trick..if you ask me....(well not a trick - but that is the reason) most people back home, dont even know these artist names. What is true Southern African music,..eisch..well besides all the different traditional styles like Kwassa Kwaasa,Hikwa or Kwiku, i would say a nice mix or KWAITO and Afro-Pop could define southern African music.

I think i could tell you quite Good, what i think German Music is,..NOT because i have been a few times in germany, but because the media representing German music Internationally is Well balanced, from the Folk Music of the different Regions in Germany, to the top of the pop charts - of most german artist, --you get all the info even in Africa..............and there is my issue with the Project, and why i was concerned where i think it is headed .....since i am on a mission to promote southern African Music (Kwaito - Afro-pop) to the European, and even International market,...is that the true music is being displayed....because ....that is exactly what i do not support is that a fake image of african music is being produced...to kamastach show the people out there, that are getting, more and more interested in the African continent, dont get a wrong impression!

but yeah, that is my only concern, ..and i know i might be going a bit overboard with this whole discussion, because..this project might not focus too much on getting african music out to the world but rather...a group of international artist all over the world just wanting to meet up on a platform hopeing to learn from african music, - and if there are not actually african artist collaboration, - THEn just doing music together, of what they think is african music...or just using the topic!

oto eha mekenge,
ame fikamena o kaume eh kange.

sharp, sharp

EES

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Permalink Reply by Carsten Trotzkowski on June 8, 2009 at 2:32am

Well, EES, there is still a little chance for both of us to combine our aims.

But first of all, I'll be frank that like you I'm really unsecure about the official CD - as long as the questions I've posted are nor answered, I don't see any means of predicting the results or the mechanism that leads there, and we are beginning to run out of time for the big move.

But nevertheless, it might be valuable to think about some possibilities and how to make them real.

As I understand, it is your dream to open up a door for African Musicians for a worldwide audience. Well, my dream was to bring up new ways of collaboration, for musicians to cooperate while not having the chance to attend a real music studio together using modern technology on the internet.

I am not even talking about "cheap" clever devices for "only" some 100 Euros or whatever - having in mind that, like it was said before by someone, a lot of skilled African musicians might not have possibilities to invest anything into the blue.

But I am still wondering if it wouldn't be helpful, and feasible, if African musicians tried to get into direct collaboration with worldwide artists, e.g. using limited means over the internet. So what do I mean:

As an example, I produced a short demo song for Kenya's Babu on his poem "X-mas always", you'll find it easily in my player. The music itself is 100% European (sorry, you'll hate it), but what is special about it: I produced everythingonly with zero cost (!) software, on small equipment you'll find in every cyber cafe, i.e. ANY Windows PC with a webcam mic, and free software and free sounds (I did not even use an instrument, so if you had no guitar, but could THINK a guitar tune...).

So - provided an African musician can 1) afford a few hours at a cyber 2) is good in convincing the owner that installing legal free-of-charge-music-software will a) open new biz fields for his cyber cafe - or b) help parttaking in a cool beneficial Africa project etc...) - those musicians would have a new door to the world - and I do believe real good music does not need Dolby Surround sound quality to be attractive.

I even suggested I'd make little tutorials on how to do it - but to my surprise nobody was interested so I invested my time into other things.

Moreover - my two songs "The End vs. Omega" and "Ouma" do contain "low quality" recordings from Africa - yes only spoken words, but as a "proof of concept" I have material from another part of a world to put into my songs.

The first one was spoken by the poet Otiato in a cyber cafe (yes!) into the Windows (onboard) sound recorder tool - no cost, but result! And the recording has it's own lo-fi-flavour....

Plus: Niran Okewole's voice can be heard in the player of "The Poems Reader", and even in a song of Lucky - also recorded in Nigeria on inferior equipment. And it all did not cost more than an hour at the cyber, but it has become real.

There would be many other inexpensive ways in bringing music to the www.
And to share it with others. If it IS good music, I am sure with a little help of pros from this project there might open up a little chance for what you said: "africans to learn how to do music the professional way". No, not singing into a webcam mic is the professional way, but getting in contact with pro's might be!

For a little start: Why has Anke Johannsen (an established German pro) a cool ballade, available for us in single multitracks, but with digital plugin percussion only, rather than an original African handmade groove?

Yeah, that would only be the left hand of the scales, but what would be the real difference to play it the other way - with "real" African songs, and a pro to join in?

As long as we don't try, we'll never know.

But ok, I'm just a dreamer. Especially many musicians turned out to be not willing to alter the way they make music. And I won't conceal about troubles to integrate pros (the ones to make a living from music) and amateurs (the ones making a hobby from music) - you'll shortly hear something very loud from me on that topic.

But if you bring some African musicians, we can try how far we can get!

:-) Carsten (-:

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Permalink Reply by Billy Winslow on June 16, 2009 at 8:38pm

Thank you for your candid viewpoint.

I added my music to my page hoping someone would Africanize it... The song Happy go Lucky was written for Lucky Thobela , Smiles with tears was written to export the feeling that we are all human. Stone Soup was written off the hope that other people would add their parts to it and make it more than what it would be otherwise. An example of this is what Brian Macdonald did with Smiles (his version is Good will good hope) The only way I know to be intouch with the music you describe is to create music with pre recorded drum loops that are African. Other than that all I can do is to offer my simple songs in an honest attempt to give away apart of myself and ask for other people to contribute. Lucky has indicated that he would like to contribute to Stone Soup. If Luck would add himself into Stone Soup it would bring me closer to what I hope for this project. I do admit my ignorance on the subject of Africa. I do have honest intentoins in helping other people. The truth is I have nothing else to give but my music.

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Permalink Reply by Carsten Trotzkowski on June 17, 2009 at 12:29am

Right, Billy, I would sign every word you said also for myself, I agree 100%.

:-) Carsten (-:

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Permalink Reply by Carsten Trotzkowski on June 14, 2009 at 2:28am

Moin, Ees,

as I already announced, you'll find I also allowed myself to let my anger break through for one song.
I called it "This Is Not Commerce". Again I'm lightyears from African Music (did not even intend, and would not suggest it for any CD), but...

While the both of us have been discussing more on "African vs. Non African Music", I felt urged to target on "Commerce vs. Charity", since some other things started to take the wrong route....

How's that?

:-) Carsten (-:

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Permalink Reply by Billy Winslow on June 16, 2009 at 3:27pm

I am of the belief that all music came from Africa. The genetic code markers track our journey from a scientific historical point of reference. Where the DNA went so did the music. I am unaware of what happened to make you angry but what ever it was a good song came from it. I do have one question. If we dont use commerce in this project how can we have capital to turn it ito charity? As far as my music is concerned it has been listen to only by my closest friends and family until now. The truth is unless it is marketed and sold it is not being in its full potential. What are your thoughts on this?

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Permalink Reply by Carsten Trotzkowski on June 16, 2009 at 5:47pm

Moin, Billy,

interesting point about parallels in DNA and music, will think about it.

Also your thoughts about commerce are valid to me. What makes the difference between our replies, is simply that this topic is not a yes/no question.

1) The reason for my song "This Is Not Commerce" is not to be found in the undoubted fact that our end product (the CD) MUST be produced to match international commercial needs and rules - it obviously has to!

2) If you follow the lyrics down beyond the refrain, you will find it is aiming at freeloaders which agitated here lately. Well, I believe everyone who contributes should be able to benefit from it as well, but not in a one way direction. It's not ok to place a kind of "bait" here (which might be music not really produced for Sawubona), and then announce to lawsuit members who try to use that in cooperative projects (e.g. make a video on it).

3) Furthermore, I see some other pro-s here who have not contributed any music or ideas for Sawubona yet, but have a kind of advertising for their "normal" affairs on their pages. I declare my opinion, that Sawubona should make clear that it is not just another "Myspace" where you simply enlarge personal distribution channels - without adding any value to Sawubona in return than "yet another member".

4) Moreover, the central way to benefit from a project like this should be to become part of the final product, so you can reach a broader audience and be listed in some reviews on it and such. But what I observe here sometimes, is that there are tendencies to make a direct personal profit from the project - somehow to be paid for contribution, in money or other things. That is not ok for a real beneficial project, as long as there are alternatives for the result. Material ressources should be paid for, yes and personal expenses if they cannot be avoided, but all (!) who take part in it should not aim at a personal financial "plus" before the result will have raised true money for the poor!

5) Altogether, I am not scared at all if none of my music would survive to the final CD - being a single amateur I'm really aware that I can't compete with professional production teams, and I know for sure that only market-ready music is likely to be taken into account. What scares me much more is that, while the project started as a collaborative project with a central mission to use Web 2.0 to bring musicians together worldwide, that might be something that is not worth a penny any more. All the collaboration we did was based on "guerilla technology", not on sophisticated high tech functions. Simply go to the main page - as if you were a new potential subscriber - and see what you'll learn about "Sawubona". The big MUSIC sign will lead you to an error message, the POEMS are 9 month old, and half of the page is on a road show of the Justaloud champions (who did great music indeed, but - sorry - did it on another platform, and thus non-cooperative). To none of our discussions on central issues there have been any official replies during the last half year. I have repeatedly asked for directives so I'll not produce into the blue anymore, but to a certain aim, to close a known gap. The last song I did on an official Sawubona lyric, had none (zero) replies from anyone. Do you have a clear understanding how the rules of the road ahead are? How the Sawubona music will be selected, by whom, and who will be musically responsible for the end product?

On April 25th, 2008, I started a discussion stub on my page, "Culture or Commerce". It was one of the first entries on the official Sawubona site. Have I asked the question too early?

:-| Carsten |-:

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